| Allan Wilson:
I am grateful
to David Mundell for providing me with an opportunity this afternoon—it
is still afternoon—to allay the concerns that he and others may have and
to address some of the misinformation that has flown about in the debate.
I should not be surprised at the rather manufactured concern—if members
do not mind my calling it that—at the absence of my colleagues. I assure
members that they are getting quality, if not quantity, Labour representation.
Members, of
course, are each represented by an MP, with whom they are perfectly at
liberty to raise matters of concern on Post Office issues, benefit and
pension payments and tax credits, because those are all reserved to the
UK Government. That is properly so. It is how we get a viable, modern and
effective Post Office service on a UK basis. The last thing that would
help the Post Office would be to dismantle it nationally as the nationalists
wish to do.
The changes
that the Government is making to the way that benefits and pensions are
paid will ensure a more modern, efficient and reliable service. They will
increase customer choice, which I would have thought our Conservative colleagues
would have supported. They will provide better value for the taxpayer,
although that will not concern the nationalists particularly, given their
spendthrift policies. They will also cut fraud and boost financial inclusion
rather than the contrary, which John Farquhar Munro seemed to argue.
My abiding memory
of this problem is walking down Kilbirnie main street, where I live, in
the most inclement weather and seeing some of the poorest and most vulnerable
members of our community sheltering themselves from the elements as they
waited for the post office to open on a Monday morning so that they could
cash their giros. I said to myself that there must be a better system than
that.
Shona Robison:
rose—
Mr Raffan:
rose—
Allan Wilson:
The better system that I propose, and which
the Government is introducing, is that people in that vulnerable situation
can—like Shona Robison, Keith Raffan and all the other members in the chamber—access
their cash 24 hours a day, seven days a week. We want to provide that opportunity
to the most vulnerable members of society and we make no apology for that.
Mr Raffan: Will
the minister give way?
Shona Robison:
Will the minister take an intervention?
Allan Wilson:
People will have more choice about where and when they collect their money.
There are and will be a range of accounts that people can access at Post
Office branches. People will no longer have to collect their money all
in one go; the police and others think that that will help to tackle crime.
Mr Raffan:
Will the minister give way?
Allan Wilson:
We can give members the statistics on the
number of old age pensioners who are robbed for their giro—I suspect that
that happens in Perth as it does elsewhere.
Shona Robison:
rose—
Allan Wilson:
People will be able to collect their money from one of more than 40,000
cash machines across the UK. The current system of order books and giros—I
suspect that there are a few of them in Dundee—is expensive to operate,
as was mentioned, and is open to fraud and abuse. The new, modern system
of direct payment will free up resources for better investment.
Direct payment
into an account is also much more secure and will help the Government to
crack down on the criminals who prey on pensioners—in Perth and in Dundee—by
stealing their order books and cashing orders themselves; on average, well
over 100 pensioners a week have their order books stolen.
Direct payment
will help to spread financial inclusion by increasing the number of people
who have bank accounts and giving them opportunities to benefit.
Fergus Ewing:
On a point of order, is it in order for the
minister to take interventions to disturb the free flow of his reading
from his brief?
The Deputy Presiding
Officer: That is not a point of order. I ask
the minister to continue.
Allan Wilson:
I assure Mr Ewing that I am not reading from my brief, if that is any consolation.
Mr Raffan: Will
the minister give way?
Allan Wilson:
I am happy to give way.
Mr Raffan: Why
does the minister want to tell pensioners what he thinks is good for them
instead of listening to what they want? Labour wants to do what it wants
to do; it does not want to listen to people. If Labour were to listen it
might do better in the polls.
Allan Wilson:
I think that we will do all right in the polls.
We are, as Mr Raffan knows, a listening Government. We are not about imposing
change for its own sake. I am laying out why we believe that we should
have a modernised and efficient service that gives poor and vulnerable
people access to their cash 24 hours a day, seven days a week; that is
the same access to their cash that Keith Raffan enjoys to his. We should
not deny that to pensioners and the most vulnerable people in our communities.
Mr Stone:
Will the minister take an intervention?
Allan Wilson:
No. I must move on.
There have been
a lot of sensible questions, in addition to some of the pre-election rubbish
that has been spouted. I will answer the legitimate questions that David
Mundell and others have asked. As I was challenged to stand up for Scotland,
I should point out that I have been in contact regularly with colleagues
down south to ensure that the legitimate questions that were asked by Keith
Raffan and other members such as Alasdair Morgan—I recognise the interest
that he has shown in the matter over the piece—have been represented and
that the Scottish interest is taken on board in the considerations of colleagues
down south.
Fergus Ewing:
You have not done anything.
Allan Wilson:
That is not true. I will come on to that.
The banks have
been introducing straightforward, basic bank accounts over the past few
years. Those are ideal for people who have never used an account before
and, from April, many can be used at local post offices. Customers will
have available to them a variety of free-to-operate bank account options
that can be accessed through post offices as well as the new post office
card account, which I will come to in more detail shortly. The important
point is that people will still be able to get their money from the Post
Office after the Government moves to direct payment.
I would argue
that new banking services and the introduction of the Post Office card
account are central to the future of the Post Office. Without those reforms,
combined with significant Government support, the Post Office would face
an uncertain future with declining numbers of customers and many more branch
closures. Those changes provide an ideal opportunity for the Post Office
to create a modern and efficient national network of branches providing
a range of new, high-quality services to customers.
The UK Government
is committed to ensuring that people will be able to continue to collect
their benefits in cash at post offices if they so wish. There will be post
office access to a range of bank accounts. That will enable all those who
wish to do so to continue to collect their benefits in cash at post offices.
There is the existing account, which is a standard bank or building society
account—I notice that about 42 per cent of benefit recipients currently
choose to hold such an account—and there is the bank or building society
basic account for those who are new to banking.
Alasdair Morgan:
Nobody is disputing the fact that the Post
Office card account is there and that, in theory, people can use it to
get their cash out. The point is that it is so impossibly difficult for
people to take that option.
Allan Wilson:
I was going to come to that, although I do
not accept the basic premise of Alasdair Morgan's argument or of other
arguments that there is not a level playing field. As at 10 January, the
total number of benefit customers requesting Post Office card accounts
was about 26,500, which is made up of nearly 9,000 child benefit customers
and about 17,500 veterans agency customers.
We are not managing
people's choices, as has been suggested, particularly by Stewart Stevenson;
we are informing individuals of the choices available. The intention is
gradually to build up the number of benefit customers and pensioners who
are paid through bank accounts and the Post Office card account, starting
from April.
Stewart Stevenson:
Will the minister give way?
Allan Wilson:
If Stewart Stevenson does not mind, I think
that I probably need to make progress—although I would normally have enjoyed
Stewart's intervention.
As the system
proves itself in practice, the Government will increase the number of people
who are paid through those accounts. Those pension and benefit customers
who have opted for a card account, but who have not yet opened one and
sent their account details to the DWP, will continue to be paid by order
book or giro as they are now.
The Government
will not, I assure members, take risks with the money of pensioners and
other benefit and tax credit recipients. The service will not be accepted
until it has been proven to be reliable and robust, and until it provides
a high-quality service to customers. The DWP will have an important role
in taking customers through the changes, including how they get their money
from their account at the post office if they wish to do that. Customers
will be supplied with information clearly setting out their account options
and enabling them freely to choose the account that is right for them.
That is as it should be.
All the Government
materials set out the key features of the various accounts and the availability
of post office access and of the card account at every turn. There will
be no special eligibility criteria and no cap on the number of people who
can opt for the card account at post offices. Customers will choose the
account that they want. That information is contained in a leaflet—I was
pleased to hear references to it during the debate—which ensures that customers'
options are known.
There is a Scottish
dimension to this. It is for the Department for Work and Pensions and the
UK Government to ensure that people in Scotland have the necessary information
about the changes and about their choices. Following representations that
I made to the Department for Work and Pensions and UK ministers, partly
in response to colleagues, the DWP is taking steps to address some of the
concerns that have been expressed in Scotland, and it has planned a range
of activities to make the changes understood. Those will include a meeting
with key Scottish organisations, including Age Concern Scotland, at a Scottish
round-table special interest group. Representations that I have made are
being taken on board by colleagues down south to ensure that the full range
of choices is available to Scottish customers, and that the information
is properly disseminated.
I accept that
post offices provide socially important services and facilities that are
of particular importance to deprived communities—I say that from my personal
experience. In recognition of that, we have established a £2 million
funding programme to develop retail facilities at post offices in deprived
urban areas. I do not see many members in the chamber who are overly concerned
about deprived urban areas—with the honourable exception of Dennis Canavan.
A key objective of the programme is to ensure that this vital community
facility remains accessible to all. On 3 March we began to accept applications
for grants from the fund. I encourage all eligible sub-postmasters to apply.
I thank David
Mundell for providing us with an opportunity to debate this issue. He said
that he had secured a record number of members' debates, but I have probably
answered more than my fair share of such debates. I hope that I have answered
some of the members' questions tonight. I assure colleagues that I am happy
to return in correspondence to those matters of continuing concern that
I was unable to deal with directly, especially issues that colleagues would
like to raise with UK ministers. I would be glad to assist them in that.
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