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Skills And Training For a Modern Scotland
A debate on motion
S2M-3806, in the name of Allan Wilson, on Skills And Training For a Modern
Scotland.
The Deputy
Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-3806, in the name of
Allan Wilson, on skills and training for a modern Scotland.
The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Allan Wilson):
I am certainly pleased, as I hope are other members, to have this
opportunity to discuss a critical issue for the prosperity and well-being of
Scotland: how we develop and grow our workforce to provide more
opportunities for individuals to flourish in work and for growing businesses
and our economy more generally to prosper. Indeed, the Executive has
embarked on an historic mission to secure full employment and to eliminate
poverty within a generation.
Over the past year, we have consulted extensively. We have sought the views
of many experts, practitioners and — crucially — employers with the
enthusiasm and commitment to move more people into successful and rewarding
work. Their input has been invaluable.
It has taken time, but we must remember that in excess of £500 million is
spent in Scotland every year to help people into work. That does not include
our investment in young people. We need to be sure that any changes we make
are appropriate. It is right that before we publish our plans, members have
the opportunity to discuss the issues and contribute their views this
afternoon. The Enterprise and Culture Committee will also have the
opportunity to contribute later this year.
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):
Once the debate has taken place, will the minister be in a position to tell
us when the employability strategy and the not in education, employment or
training strategy will be published?
Allan Wilson:
We hope to publish both documents in the very near future. I would have
thought that Scottish National Party members would welcome the opportunity
to have the debate in advance of publication so that they can make useful
contributions and influence the future direction of the strategies.
I emphasise that we work closely with the United Kingdom Government on this
agenda, as members can imagine.
We are working with the Department for Work and Pensions on its plans for
welfare reform, which will be published shortly, and have shared with the
DWP our work over the past year. We share its aspiration to move towards an
80 per cent employment rate in the UK over the next 20 years. It is
important that we co-ordinate our workforce development activity with its
operation of the benefits and welfare-to-work systems.
As my subsequent remarks will show, Scotland can be proud of its record on
increasing employment and investing in skills in recent years. We have good
foundations for further success, but we face significant challenges in
helping more people into work.
Employers are key to the agenda. My colleague Nicol Stephen will expand on
that if time allows. We need to broaden the labour pool from which employers
can recruit for successful businesses and, equally, we need employers to
play their part in providing the opportunities for increased employment.
The importance that we attach to growing and developing the workforce is
clear in our published documents. In the partnership agreement, we set out
our vision to encourage and stimulate economic growth and to tackle poverty
and disadvantage. Enterprise can flourish only where the opportunity for
people to contribute to enterprise and the economy exists for all and where
no one is left behind. It is about providing young people with the skills
for work; helping people of all ages to develop their skills while in work;
and encouraging more economically inactive people to move into employment.
Jim Mather (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
What concrete methods does the minister have in place to measure outcomes,
with a baseline now that will allow progress to be measured into the future?
Allan Wilson:
We measure our progress using international comparators. I hope that the
debate will not turn into a sterile exchange of statistics, but we have the
best youth employment figures of anywhere in the Organisation for Economic
Co-operation and Development. Mr Mather's amendment is wrong in what it says
about young people who are not in education, employment or training, but I
accept that these issues are challenging. As I have said, our objective is
to reach a position where no young person is left without the opportunity
for education, employment or training.
It is important to emphasise that we are living through the longest
continuous period of economic growth in a generation. To keep growing, we
need to build skills and qualifications levels among our workforce. We are
making real progress on that. Since 1993, the proportion of the working-age
population without qualifications has dropped from 26 per cent to 16 per
cent. Around half of our young people undertake higher education. In the
academic year up to 2004, nearly 500,000 people enrolled in our further
education colleges. As everybody here will know, we currently have more than
34,000 people working towards a modern apprenticeship, with a further 9,000
on skillseekers programmes.
All that progress is reflected throughout the labour market. Youth
unemployment has fallen by 30 per cent while the overall claimant-count
unemployment rate has fallen by 40 per cent. Meanwhile, the employment rate
has increased from 71.3 per cent to 75.2 per cent — an increase of almost 4
percentage points. That means that 159,000 more people are in work. For the
first time in a generation, our employment rate is above the United Kingdom
average.
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
I wonder whether I may take the minister back a sentence or two, to when he
was talking about measurements. What definitions does he use? Does he
consider how long a person is in a job? For example, what about somebody who
takes a job but leaves it a week later? Is that person counted, or is a
period of time — three months or six months — required?
Allan Wilson:
For employment and unemployment, we use measurements that are recognised by
the International Labour Organisation. We currently have one of the highest
employment rates in Europe — 75 per cent — as well as the highest employment
rate since records began. We also have the lowest unemployment rate for a
generation — 3.2 per cent. That is how we measure and those are the results.
However, I would not want anyone to think that we were complacent. There are
still some areas of concentrated high unemployment and there are many people
who face multiple obstacles to entering and progressing in the labour
market. We know that many of those individuals want to work, given the right
opportunities and appropriate support. Between August and October 2005, the
number of economically inactive people in Scotland stood at 526,000. Of
those, 198,000 said that they wanted to work.
A substantial number of those people have no qualifications —
Jim Mather:
Will the minister take an intervention?
Allan Wilson:
I have already taken three interventions and I have to think of my time.
The people who are economically inactive include people with no
qualifications, who represent 35 per cent of workless people; people with
health problems, including people with mental health problems, who represent
more than 40 per cent of claimants of incapacity benefit; and lone parents
and others with caring responsibilities — although we have made great
progress in that regard, with the employment rate for lone parents
increasing from 41.6 per cent in 1977 to 54.9 per cent in 2004.
Ethnic minority groups are disproportionately affected by unemployment, as
are people with substance abuse problems, the homeless, and ex-offenders. As
I have said, we also face a particular challenge with some of Scotland's
young people who are not in education, employment or training. Specifically
for them, we have invested £22.4 million since the Beattie report was
published in 1999. A further £86 million has been invested in the determined
to succeed strategy. Educational maintenance allowances now offer financial
support of up to £1,500 a year to encourage young people from low-income
households to remain in post-compulsory education.
We need to support people whose health prevents them from getting
employment. We recognise the links between employment, poverty and health.
That was why we established the Scottish centre for healthy working lives.
The UK Government pathways to work programme offers support to help those
who are claiming incapacity benefit to move back into employment. The
programme will be operating successfully across a third of Scotland by April
in targeting the areas of very high benefit dependency.
We need to keep working in the important area of people with low or no
skills to raise the skills of people who are in low-paid jobs as well as
those of the unemployed.
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Will the minister comment on the role and development of the sector skills
councils and on their importance for those who are in work?
Allan Wilson:
The sector skills councils are an employer-led approach to tackling skills
shortages or gaps. It is vital that there is employer buy-in to the wider
employability strategy and to tackling skills gaps and shortages so that our
investment is targeted at the areas and the sectors of our economy that need
it most. We are investing record sums in further education: £620 million by
2007-08. ILA Scotland and the Scottish union learning fund are contributing
to the raising of skills level for those in employment and those closer to
the labour market.
Many of those who are out of work or who have low levels of skills or
qualifications live in our most deprived areas. In addition to the
investment that I have already talked about, we need to focus our community
funding to ensure better outcomes in those areas. To achieve that, £318
million — in addition to other moneys — is being invested in the community
regeneration fund. Nearly £50 million of that funding will go to support the
national priority of helping more people into work. From 2004 to 2008, £50
million pounds will be invested in the working for families fund to remove
childcare barriers to work for 15,000 families. There is no shortage of
resources being directed at those areas.
I want to get the important message across that the Executive is making a
considerable range of support and investment available to develop the
employability of our current and future workforce in Scotland. We must
recognise that there has been much progress. The message that we have taken
from our consultation to date is that the considerable funding and support
on offer need to be co-ordinated in the interests of individuals and
employers. That is an important message, and there is scope to design and
deliver new sorts of services. We have made much progress and we have much
progress to look forward to. We will publish a new strategy for young people
who are not in education, employment or training in the next few weeks.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that developing the current and future workforce
of Scotland is key to ending poverty and sustaining economic growth;
recognises the very good progress that is being made in reducing
unemployment through investment in skills and training, and welcomes the
Scottish Executive's intention to work with the United Kingdom Government,
employers and employer organisations, universities, colleges, training
organisations and other public agencies to drive forward opportunities for
workforce development to strengthen the economy and improve the
employability and skills of individuals across Scotland, in particular those
furthest from employment and those in lower paid, low skilled jobs.
Jim Mather (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
The Scottish National Party has important reservations about the Executive's
management of the skills agenda and about its motion. We believe that the
motion attempts to paper over the cracks in a poor track record. That is
implicitly admitted in the text of the motion, the words of which glare out
at us: "poverty", "growth", "unemployment", "employability" and "lower paid,
low skill jobs".
The minister mentioned growth, but the claims that he made were UK claims.
Scotland has been in recession in recent memory and has had lower growth
than the UK for 30 years.
Allan Wilson:
Will the member not accept that since the Executive made growing the economy
its top priority, the economy has grown in every quarter since the present
Government was elected?
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Scotland has a particular problem with its rate of young people who are not
in education, employment or training, which is higher than the rate in any
other country in Europe or in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and
Development. It is estimated that, between March 2004 and February 2005, the
number of Scottish 16 to 19-year-olds who were classified as NEET was around
35,000. That accounts for 13.1 per cent of females and 13.9 per cent of
males — approximately one in seven — in that age group. For Glasgow, the
rate was as high as 23 per cent. Despite the substantial Executive
investment that has been aimed at supporting young people, the sad fact is
that that proportion has remained relatively static.
The impact of being NEET can be devastating. An investigation by the NEET
working group showed that, for a young man, the effect of being NEET is
that, by the time he is 21, he is four times more likely to be unemployed,
three times more likely to have depression or mental health problems, five
times more likely to have a criminal record and six times less likely to
have any qualifications.
Allan Wilson:
I had not wanted to get into a situation in which we simply bandy
statistics, but does the member accept that, in the international
comparisons to which he referred, the proportion of young people between the
ages of 15 to 19 who are in employment is higher in Scotland than in the
rest of the UK and Europe and that our rate is also higher than that of the
rest of the OECD put together?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
We now move to the open debate. I call Fiona Hyslop, who will be followed by
Duncan McNeil. Speeches will be six minutes.
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
I want to pursue the theme of early intervention. I also want to reflect
concerns that businesses have about the Government's initiatives,
particularly in teaching and education. We know that the Government faces
big challenges in meeting its targets for class-size reductions. To meet the
target for the number of teachers it requires, it would have had to double,
if not treble, the number of English and mathematics teachers in initial
teacher training — the places in initial teacher training would have had to
be taken primarily by English and maths teachers.
When employers talk about the skills gap, they are often talking about soft
skills. Yesterday evening, I read an interesting and telling report by John
McLaren — not somebody whom I would ordinarily quote — entitled "Soft Skills
& Early Years", which was produced for Scottish Enterprise. He comments:
"The best evaluations relate to Early Years Intervention and indicate, for
some programmes, very high rates of return. This suggests that 'soft' skills
might be best encouraged at an early age, when habits are less set and minds
more plastic."
Allan Wilson:
I follow the logic of the member's argument and I agree entirely with the
point about early intervention, but does the member accept that there is
another priority? If circa 75 per cent of the workforce of 2020 is currently
in employment, surely that demands attention and investment now to ensure
that workforce development takes place.
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
What prevents disabled people and people with impairments getting into work?
People want to work, and there is a huge amount of untapped talent out
there. As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee I participated in
its disability inquiry. During that inquiry, the issue of the benefits
system was constantly raised. The second issue that was raised is the lack
of information. If there is information, people do not know how to access
it. There is a lack of training for people and an inability to get into
work. In that context, I wondered whether the minister would consider a
one-stop shop or a national strategy.
Allan Wilson:
I will clarify the position for the member. I did not mention every
disadvantaged group, but I did not mean to exclude anyone. Obviously, there
are multiple obstacles to employment for many people. The strategy that we
seek to develop will indeed address the matter of individually tailored
solutions for tackling all the obstacles that individuals face, including
those who are physically disabled.
Ms White:
I could continue, but I want to know whether the minister can give me an
answer today. I have heard that the group has not been set up to consider
inequalities, but research. I would like the minister to clarify matters.
Perhaps that is unfair, as the minister is not the Minister for Communities
— Malcolm Chisholm is — but I would like clarification. Is the group just
for research? Obviously ethnic minority groups are fed up with being
constantly researched — they want some action.
Allan Wilson:
We are establishing a task force — I cannot announce the chairmanship in
advance — and it will not look just at research into why ethnic minorities
seem to be more disadvantaged in the labour market than others, it will
consider solutions.
Shiona Baird (North East Scotland) (Green):
Recent studies have shown that women who participate in the modern
apprenticeship scheme are also concentrated in low-paid occupations. On the
one hand, the Executive promotes the scheme as a means of achieving a highly
skilled workforce, but on the other, it fails to recognise the dramatic
under-representation of women and men in particular sectors in the scheme.
Allan Wilson:
Does the member concede that there is no integral discrimination in the
scheme that would preclude women from participating in greater numbers, but
that there are wider cultural and social problems in the labour market more
generally that militate against progress?
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):
We have heard about the 16 to 19-year-olds who are commonly referred to as
NEETs — young people who are not in education, employment or training.
Clearly, they must be a priority group, for all the reasons that have been
highlighted during the debate.
The second priority group is part-time students. Duncan McNeil referred to
the practical problems and financial barriers that face many people who want
to return to training as a prerequisite to returning at some point to the
labour market. People face major barriers to returning to training and
education, which means in turn that they face a major barrier to returning
to the labour market. I hope that the employability strategy will address
the particular needs of that group of people.
The third group is middle-aged people who have perhaps been made redundant
or for some reason have been out of the labour force for some time and
require training or retraining to gain opportunities in the labour market.
I hope that the employability strategy will address those three priority
groups as well as some of the groups that Sandra White mentioned.
Allan Wilson:
I do not dispute anything that the member says, but I wonder whether he
agrees that many other groups in society are priorities. Does he agree that,
in addition to those who are furthest from the labour market and those who
are closer to it, one of the important groups consists of those who are in
employment but who may be in low-paid jobs or jobs with low prospects? It is
important that we develop the workforce in a way that gives those people
greater opportunity.
Decision Time
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
There are eight questions to be put as a result of today's business.
The third question is, that amendment S2M-3806.1, in the name of Jim Mather,
which seeks to amend motion S2M-3806, in the name of Allan Wilson, on skills
and training for a modern Scotland, be agreed to. Are we
agreed?
Members:
No.
The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer:
The result of the division is: For 34, Against 81, Abstentions 6.
Amendment disagreed to.
The Presiding Officer:
The fourth question is, that amendment S2M-3806.2, in the name of Murdo
Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S2M-3806, in the name of Allan Wilson,
on skills and training for a modern Scotland, be
agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Presiding Officer:
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer:
The result of the division is: For 47, Against 72, Abstentions 0.
Amendment disagreed to.
The Presiding Officer:
The final question is, that motion S2M-3806, in the name of Allan Wilson, on
skills and training for a modern Scotland, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Presiding Officer:
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer:
The result of the division is: For 75, Against 22, Abstentions 23.
Motion agreed to.
That the Parliament agrees that developing the current and future workforce
of Scotland is key to ending poverty and sustaining economic growth;
recognises the very good progress that is being made in reducing
unemployment through investment in skills and training, and welcomes the
Scottish Executive's intention to work with the United Kingdom Government,
employers and employer organisations, universities, colleges, training
organisations and other public agencies to drive forward opportunities for
workforce development to strengthen the economy and improve the
employability and skills of individuals across Scotland, in particular those
furthest from employment and those in lower paid, low skilled jobs.
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